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Students Balance Homework, Husbands
PUBLISHED DECEMBER 10, 2007
In October 2003, first-year Miriam Casper, BC ’07, hit it off with a guy she met at a friend’s party on the roof of Woodbridge Hall. A year later, she married him and moved to Queens. After 18 months, she gave birth to her son Benjamin.
One week later, she graduated magna cum laude.
Most students at Barnard and Columbia College will spend their undergraduate years exploring varying levels of relationships and intimacy. But for a number of orthodox Jewish students, tying the knot while in college is the norm.
“I always hoped by the time I graduated college, I would be married, be engaged, or be dating someone I knew I wanted to marry,” said Molly Elkins, BC ’08, who married last month and moved to Washington Heights with her husband.
For Yael Hall, BC ’10, who is preparing for her January wedding, marriage came sooner than expected. “I was the last person anyone would think would be getting married,” Hall said. “I got really rude responses from friends who knew me like that, saying, ‘Wow, I really didn’t think you’d be one of the first ones to go.’”
While living in Cathedral Gardens may seem like a trek, married students commute from as far as New Jersey. According to Hillel Rabbi David Almog, marriage presents a disruption of a student’s college experience.
“In college ... friends really do become your family,” Almog said. “There’s a severe rupture that happens, when somebody gets married, of that bond.”
Rachel Fischer, BC ’08, who married last year, agreed that one of the hardest parts of matrimony was giving up campus connections.
“I definitely miss ... that environment where you’re always with people doing the same things,” said Fischer, who lives in New Jersey. “Everyone has midterms, everyone has finals, everyone’s in library.”
Elkins said she accepted that marriage meant giving up certain aspects of her old social life, including spending less time with her friends.
Marriage was a possibility she kept in the back of her mind from the beginning of college, though it did not dictate her plans.
“On some level it focuses you,” said Michelle Friedman, BC ’74 and a psychiatrist who counsels observant Jewish women. “If you’re a pre-med person you know what courses you take. If you want to get married, you focus on that. Finding a spouse is like finding a job.”
For Fischer, who is currently applying to law school, her time at Barnard was often a tough balancing act between family obligations and career aspirations.
“There’s always the constant temptation of ‘forget school, who cares? I’m married. ... What would be the difference?’” Fischer said. “But I can’t give up that aspect of my life. I couldn’t give up those goals.”
Yet some students feel no qualms prioritizing family life over college. “Marriage is much better than education and academics,” Elkins said. “I wasn’t going to push off my wedding six months to do a little bit better in all my classes. I live life and go to school, but I don’t let it conflict with celebrations or anything like that. That’s the wrong perspective for school.”
Friedman said it could be tricky for college women to balance the more traditional values of the orthodox community with contemporary careers, noting that going back and forth between traditional gender roles and modern college life is sometimes confusing.
For some women, the combined pressure to get married young and start a career can be overwhelming. In a community where marriage is often expected by a woman’s early twenties, time is of the essence.
“I have friends who come to me and say, ‘forget about it, it’s over, I’m an old maid,’” said Fischer, who is 22.
“I’ve met several women who said, ‘I’m trying to decide, do I want to get married young or do I want to go to graduate school,’ and they see it as a conflict,” Almog said.
Fischer added that some observant men are uneasy about marrying pre-professional women.
“A lot of guys don’t understand that girls don’t want to drop off everything to balance a family,” said an orthodox pre-med Barnard junior who declined to be named. “Guys want a girl that will be around to raise a family all the time.”
She added that a male friend of hers was considering breaking up with his pre-med girlfriend over these concerns.
But Fischer added that her own husband is taking a year off before medical school partially to ease her transition to law school.
Friedman has worked with women who felt conflicted about starting a family before they were ready. “I saw a young woman after college who felt enormous guilt about using birth control,” she said. “She felt there was no reason ... why she shouldn’t she be doing her mitzvah of having a baby. She had reservations but couldn’t really fully articulate them. She felt it was wrong of her to have reservations.”
Casper, who graduated in three years and took a full course load during both semesters of her pregnancy, recalled that her adviser recommended taking a semester off.
“I was a little stressed over the first week, thinking, ‘How in the world am I going to write a thesis?’” Casper said.
She now works full time as a financial advisor.
For many observant Jews, touching—let alone sex—is not permitted before marriage.
When Elkins introduced her then-fiancé to a non-religious friend, she told her not to shake his hand because he did not touch women. “When I said he didn’t touch me, she almost fainted,” Elkins said.
According to Friedman, remaining celibate until marriage is only one influence—but a significant one—on early marriage.
“Some of it [the push for early marriage] is motivated by pre-marital chastity and the pressure to want to have a full sexual relationship,” Friedman said.
Elkins disagreed. “I don’t think anyone makes a lifelong decision and commitment because of hormones,” she said.
One married Barnard student who declined to be named admitted that she and her husband kissed and hugged before marriage, although she said that desire for sex did not affect her decision.
Hall said she was most bothered by those who did not take it seriously. “We’re not playing house.”
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Wow -- the amount of mudslinging in the comments is alarming!
From the inside/outside, I didn't see the article as trying to make generalizations about the O community at B/C. Rather, it seemed like a discussion of the choices that some students make. This brief article successfully touched on many of the issues that are relevant to being married while in college.
When I was at Barnard, around 20 years ago, almost no students married while in college.
My one friend who did, still feels like she missed out on a lot of campus life, even though she lived very close to campus (still affordable to young couples, in those times).
I am in awe of the women who successfully ballance college & marriage (and raising kids). I know that I couldn't have done it! -- I wouldn't have had the college experience that I wanted, nor would I have been able to parent the way I wanted.
However, most of us didn't get married young out of choice, we didn't get married young because we were looking for the wrong things. We were looking for fireworks instead of stability. We were looking for "good looks" instead of "good values." And we were forever worried that "someone better" was just around the corner.
The result: too many of my college friends are still single. (and at this stage the biological clock is almost done ticking)
And this is not just a problem for Jews (O or otherwise).
There is seriously something wrong with what is going on in our generation. And in yours.
People who want to get married are not "finding" their partners.
People who want to have kids, are still "waiting" for the "right" guy.
People are looking for some sort of Disney movie when life is really like "Everybody Loves Raymond."
If college is supposed to prepare us for real life, then college should prepare those who want to get married to find a real person and build a real life.
Every path has advantages and disadvantages. Any time a person chooses marriage, they are forgoing other experiences. Similarly, when people choose not to marry (young or old), then they are also forgoing experiences.
The choice to marry young works for some people.
More important than age, is that a couple needs to be prepared to work hard to make their marriage work. Life is hard. But it is even harder alone.
The choice to "wait" to get married often turns into a long wait.
There are a lot of lonely people who might have been a lot happier had risked a bit more and married younger.
ps. I think it's pretty sad that no one is willing to sign their name and stand behind what they have to say.
Can't we recognize that Marriage in college is right for some people and a problem for others?
"Can't we discuss anything this semester without offending anyone? Besides, its really just a Barnard issue anyway. The 1400+ crowd need not concern themselves on this one."
seriously, did you just put these sentences side by side?
As an Orthodox woman at Barnard, I would like to say that I am proud of my sisters whom I love. These students are the essence of the strong beautiful barnard woman, taken seriously for once. I appreciate these women who can find love, and balance it with other aspects of life in a way which I could never hope to do--more power to them. And no pressure to anyone else!
While I do see the flaws in this article, I would like to thank the Spectator for raising the issue--isn't talking better than not? Okay, so I've heard that some quotes lack context, and I understand why their subjects would be upset. I would have liked to hear from the men, but in many cases, the men are older and harder to find. Journalism is an imperfect medium for discussing such complex issues, but at least the article thrusts this one into the domain of public discourse.
As an Orthodox Jewish woman at Barnard, I want to make something very clear: this article, and the women quoted in it, do not represent all of us. While they may be indicative of a certain mindset of the community (that particular mindset, expressed by: "Marriage is much better than education and academics...I wasn’t going to push off my wedding six months to do a little bit better in all my classes. I live life and go to school, but I don’t let it conflict with celebrations or anything like that. That’s the wrong perspective for school”, is, in my view, regrettable because it undermines the very educations for which the majority of us came here and work very hard to ensure), it is by no means fair to lump all of us together. Orthodoxy at Columbia/Barnard is diverse, and the article does not do that justice.
If college is about education, learning, getting a grounding for a career, seeing novel perspectives on life, delving into history, appreciating the arts; then what's love got to do with it? Why should there be any conflict or horror at the thought of being married during college?
If college is about free sex, irresponsibility, beer, weed, partying, "new experiences" (which usually just means the aforementioned things), video games, and fanaticism; then yes, marriage is scary and and conflicting and unwelcome during college years.
Unfortunately, we don't even realize that college is regarded as the latter much more than the former, which is why marriage during college is such an insane prospect. Does anyone think it's crazy to be married while (gasp!) working? So it's only because Americans have come to view college as some refuge from the real world, some 4-year vacation from reality, that something as real and important as marriage is questioned as impossible or undesirable during college.
well said.
It is my understanding that this article is meant to capture one perspective on the issue. The article does a good job of giving us a glimpse of the Orthodox woman's perspective, and does provide some insight about why these women decided to get married at such a young age.
That being said, while the rest of us may struggle to juggle coursework, internships, extracurriculars and such, these women have additional responibilities in life that take up a lot of extra time and energy. Kudos to the women who are able to keep up in school, pursue high-powered careers, take part in campus activities, and balance home/family responsibilities. It seems that, at a young age, they have accomplished what many of us can only hope for down the line.
Rachel Fischer should be Barnard's poster student!
Are the editors at the Spec. stupid enough to think the incredibly vocal Jewish community on campus would not be up in arms about this article?
Come on... the Spec's rep. is bad enough without one of the largest student groups revolting.
Are you stupid enough to assume without justification that the entire Jewish community has such an inability to listen to statements it (as if the "Jewish community" is monolithic) disagrees with that it will "be up in arms" and "revolt?"
The Jewish community may very well think there are gross inaccuracies in this article, and it may think that the statements contained in the article are harmful. And if this is the case, I hope that representatives of the Orthodox community (which I assume is what you mean) debate the statements contained therein and educate the public as to their wrongness. But I would certainly hope that they would not "revolt" nor make any attempts at censorship or intimidation. Nor would I expect them to.
Unfortunately, this seems exactly like that kind of thing that you automatically assume they would do. That's not cool, man, not cool. I don't know where you come from, which community you align yourself with - Jewish or otherwise - but let me tell you something: you may have become accustomed to employing those tactics to counter views that are not your own, but don't assume that other groups will too.
By the way, my own opinion: I'm an Orthodox male, and I was not offended by the article. It's not 100% accurate, and I'm sure that the quotes could have used some context (like every article), and the lack of male interviewees is glaring, but whatever, it's not so bad (certainly not revolt-starting material). I was actually impressed that the paper thought enough about the frum community to raise an issue that is important to a large segment of the population that is regularly ignored.
Well said. This article isn't perfect, but I don't think it's fair to blame the author for the fact that there's a robust (and at times heated) debate around the issues the piece touches on. I say it's better for Spec to delve into these matters than not to.
This article clearly touches upon a sensitive subject. I use the term 'touches upon' because with all due respect to the writer, the writing here hardly does justice to the complexity of the topic.
The comments have been interesting to read. Since the majority of posters enjoy slinging mud from their armchairs, I'll go out on a limb here and make my statement for the record.
I am a recent graduate from Columbia and an Orthodox Jew (male). Let me preface here by saying that I do not, in any way, represent the Orthodox community at Columbia/Barnard. I was just one student among many there for four years, that's all. I believe I'm a rational, fair, even-minded person, and I offer my comments here freely, take 'em or leave 'em.
The author of the article does get it right with the title. This is about balance. Particularly for female members of the Orthodox community, it can be a notoriously difficult (and sometimes insurmountable) quest to achieve a balance. I say this as the older brother of three Orthodox girls trying to find their way in the modern world. I say this as a family member and friend of a great deal of Orthodox women at a variety of stages in their lives, striving to maintain the creative tension that inevitably arises between family, education, career path, and social life.
Orthodox Judaism has come a long way in terms of shaking off outdated attitudes regarding the roles and duties of women, but it still has a great deal of ground left to cover. As one of the commenters previously intimated:
"Have you ever made a (joking, of course) pressuring comment to a girl about needing to get married already? Easy for us to joke about- our (guys') biological clocks tick much more quietly. Have you ever commented (jokingly, i hope) that you really think women belong in the kitchen and shouldn't be out in the working world. Have you ever felt that the ever-raging labido was dictating your actions and not your goals and aspirations?"
This happens all the time. But what becomes even more challenging (particularly for unmarried Orthodox women pursuing degrees at secular universities) is the sheer amount of unfair criticism and hurtful vitriol that originates from their peers. These people only betray their own deep-seated insecurities regarding relationships when they criticize others for marrying early.
This is not about percentages within the Orthodox Jewish community, or the exact amount of divorce rates within different communities, nor any other statistical inference.
This is about love. Is it so implausible that the women portrayed in this article met the person with whom they wanted to spend the rest of their lives? Who empowered you to pass judgment on their actions? Many of you appear to be a little miffed that these women are acting in a way contrary to your priorities, without so much as a "by your leave"?
This article has acquainted you with a caliber of women of extraordinary fortitude, who withstand societal pressures and stereotypes and excel in their classes and professions, all the while finding love and bearing their children along the way.
The comments by the married girls are beautiful. Their affective maturity is impressive.
Their husbands are lucky men- I would have liked to hear their perspective.
It's refreshing to hear about college students who refuse to give in the social pressures of one night stands, multiple partners, non-serious dating, etc.
It has been researched that couples who wait until marriage for sexual intercourse and then do not use contraception significantly reduce their rate of divorce.
Though this article stuck it in as an afterthought, the Jewish position on birth control is not monolithic. Many (if not most) young Orthodox couples use bc early on in marriage.
Well, they shouldn't.
They went through the wonderful journey of love- found their spouse- gave them everything- and now they want to put a plastic or chemical barrier between them during intimacy?
Doesn't make sense....
Who are you to dictate when a couple should have a child, and when a woman should sign her career away? Ready for marrige does not automatically equal ready for parenthood.
And what do you mean by "gave them everything?" In my relationship there is a give and take. I don't give "everything" and neither does my husband. We share our life, and the giving and taking.
The woman's place may sometimes by in an early marriage, but that doesn't mean that her place is also in the kitchen and pregnant.
Don't want kids- then abstain from sex- or monitor your fertility cycles.
It will help your marriage by improving your appreciation of each other and your intimacy.
I don't offer these suggestions as a religious dogmatist- I offer them as practical and effective methods to help your marriage- they work.
So you can drop your arguments about women in the workplace, blah, blah, blah. I agree with all of that.
I'm just saying- contraception hurts marriages.
In sex, I give my wife all that I am, mostly especially I give her my openness to creating new life out of our love.
If we determine that we cannot handle a pregnancy at the current time, then we give each other our total pledge in temporary abstinence. That sacrifice actually helps our relationship by not trivializing our sexual intimacy.
Halacha permits contraception in certain circumstances. Sometimes a woman physically needs a break, her body needs to rest between children. Some women get pregnant even while nursing and end up pregnant just a few months after giving birth. it's not always wrong to use birth control for a breather, and abstinence is not the halachically preferred way to achieve a little space between pregnancies.
"Contraception hurts marriage"
now that's what i call a ridiculous amount of brainwashing. who are you to make that claim? your personal feelings about contraceptives as a barrier to intimacy are only an effect of your own background/upbringing; i have never met a single person in my entire life who takes the pill and feels like she's putting something between her and her partner. sure, condoms feel a little different than flesh/flesh contact, but i know, personally, that using contraception helped me become closer to my partner because it allowed me to commit to a relationship without having to sacrifice other goals.
sexual intimacy today is not only about procreation. wake up and smell the scented condoms.
It might be easy to call me a brainwashed fool. But that doesn't refute anything of what I just wrote.
I could easily note the many studies correlating higher divorce rates with contracepting couples.
I could easily interpret your defensiveness as an assumption of me judging your morality- but I'm not judging you.
I am simply saying that the total gift of oneself to their spouse, without artificial entanglements is the best possible intimacy.
Your statement "using contraception helped me become closer to my partner because it allowed me to commit to a relationship without having to sacrifice other goals." completely proves my point.
You commit to something other than your partner when you use contraception.
I would never place any other goal about my wife- she is the ultimate focus of my love. I would sacrifice anything else in the world for her- career, prestige, money.
Now, I despite my "brainwashing" I recognize that children are certainly a joy but definitely a burden. Not every couple is ready to support a fully family.
What is the fullest loving option in that case? Marital abstinence on a temporary basis- often timed up with the monitoring of fertility cycles.
Anything else only distorts the marital act.
Try to think beyond the surface of these issues: sexual intimacy is not just biology and its not just pleasure. It is a deep life-giving act of union. You cannot separate the two without distorting it.
I'm going to direct this comment to people who are interested in improving the state of Modern Orthodox Jewry, not denigrating it.
Let's, for a minute, parallel this article to our buddy, Noah Feldman. Takes a few unhappy (unrelated!) examples to string together a suspect thesis that is disproven by a 3-second glance at the Modern Orthodox world. Done. This article does the same, though, less articulately.
That aside, there are issues raised in both articles that we should take to heart before we reject them as preposterous. Have you ever made a (joking, of course) pressuring comment to a girl about needing to get married already? Easy for us to joke about- our (guys') biological clocks tick much more quietly. Have you ever commented (jokingly, i hope) that you really think women belong in the kitchen and shouldn't be out in the working world. Have you ever felt that the ever-raging labido was dictating your actions and not your goals and aspirations?
My point is that no one would have been offended by this article if it didn't strike somewhere in the ballpark of home.
These are issues that we struggle with, and should be conscious of, even though the implications and generalizations of this article are bogus.
I am the pre-med student mentioned in the article. I want to clarify the quote since it was taken out of context. I would like to point out that I am not married, and my statement about guys not understanding that I wont drop everything for them was explaining some frustration with dating and that some guys don't understand that I'm not going to go out if I need to study. The truth is that I want a guy who is understanding of my study habits and supportive of the fact that I'm pre-med. the comment about guys wanting a girl that will be around to raise a family all the time was in reference to the conversation with my close male friend and his concerns about not having the girl around during the difficult years of residency and that he didn't want to raise his family alone during those years. I was able to convince him that there are ways to balance it and that the crazy hours of residency are only for a few years. What this article fails to include is my statement that I have met plenty of guys who love the fact that I want to be a doctor and are completely supportive of it. They do exist, I just haven't me the right one for me yet.
Psst: The husband's name is Benjamin; the son is Isaac.
Leave these girls alone. Everyone should live how they want and stop judging. That's the lesson we should all get out of this whether you are Jewish or not, observant or not, straight or gay. As long as you don't harm anyone, everyone has the right to live the way they see fit. And by the way, what is the college "experience" anyway? In this everchanging world, we should all grow and learn from one another and not antagonize.
Where are the men in this article? Obviously these students have, you know, husbands. Considering that this article is about relationships. The lack of a male perspective is a really glaring oversight, and it should have been addressed in the editorial process. Furthermore, are there really NO non-Jewish married undergrads?? I find that really hard to believe.
PS - to the person 2 comments below - not that SAT scores are any measure of intelligence whatsoever, but I am a Barnard senior and scored well over 1400 on my SATs. Omg, we can take useless, meaningless tests as well as you can!!
If the goal of this article is to explore the marital accomplishments of approximately three girls in Barnard, and to expose the general public to the (most likely out of context) pontificating of a single relationship psychiatrist, then it undoubtedly succeeds in its mission. If, on the other hand, the goal is to understand the profound tension between commitment to marriage and family versus the emphasis put upon pursuing an understanding of God's world and expansion of the intellect, in the life of a religiously committed Jew, then this article is, at most, a cute footnote.
Some questions for further study:
1) How do Barnard students in general view the potential for growth offered by marital commitment?
2) What are the potential disadvantages of getting married while still in university?
3) How do Orthodox Jews view the potential for growth offered by marital commitment?
4) Do men and women (perhaps Jewish men and women) approach the issue of marriage in college differently?
5) How is finding a spouse NOT like finding a job (see above)?
6) What is the definition of "hillul Hashem"?
I am half of a an orthodox Barnard-Columbia couple. We got married as undergrads back in the dark ages (before Columbia went co-ed.)
There are wonderful things about being married young that those of you who choose to marry late will never experience.
Neither of us has ever nursed a broken heart because we married the first time either of us fell in love. We discovered sex together. No one can possibly do a comparative study of this, but I am fully persuaded that the sex is better - the trust is simply so much deeper. We not only discovered sex together, we discovered Paris, the Kalahari and Angkor Wat together. We were together the first time we heard a muezzin at dawn in a country where they still used the human voice, together on our first hike in a tropical forest, together the first time either of us ate a ripe fig - we picked it from a tree in a garden in Jerusalem. (In our childhood, all figs came inside Newtons.) We were together for the birth of our first grandchild. Also when we met our first PC, first cell phone, and ate our first mango - (mangoes were invented sometime in the late 1980's, as far as Americans knew.) We have shared our entire adult lives.
There is a closeness that no one who marries late can experience. A closeness that comes from the shared experiences of a lifetime. And an absense of the lonliness and childlessness that has been the fate of so many dear friends who waited too long to wed. We reared our children while we were still young enough to climb mountains with them, carrying our own packs. Heaven premitting, we can expect to attend the Columbia and Barnard graduations of our grandchildren.
The downside? When we were married we were hurt by the condemnation of our choice by both faculty and students at Columbia. The community pretended to be open-minded, but was actually incredibly closed-minded. In those days of free sex marriage was viewed very negatively, and teenaged marriage was said to be even worse. The campus was filled with bigoted people ready to condemn us for marrying young and for having children young.
Reading this article and these responses, it saddens me to see that Columbia is as narrow-minded and prejudiced against religion and against young marriage as it was all those years ago.
"Besides, its really just a Barnard issue anyway. The 1400+ crowd need not concern themselves on this one."
Seriously? Would you like to get into an SAT numbers war with members of the Columbia/Barnard Orthodox community? Comments like that underscore the assumptions of this article: Marriage during college is not only a uniquely Orthodox Jewish phenomenon, but in fact only Barnard students would consider getting married as undergrads.
Though most undergrads in BC, CC and SEAS choose to spend their college years (and most often, a few post-college years) "testing the waters" with relationships that are less serious, a number in each college- male and female, Jewish or not- feel ready for more of a commitment earlier on, and I have met students from all of the undergrad colleges of or affiliated with this university who have made the choice to get married during their tenure here.
The attitude of commenters towards early marriage is characterized by the belief that one would only do so out of social pressure or sexual desires. I am not denying that those are factors, but consider for a moment the possibility that an altered telos of relationships and their purpose has a far greater impact on the choice to marry young. If you view relationships as fulfilling a need for companionship, fun, or just to "get some", then marriage does seem quite ridiculous during college. This is, however, not the view of Orthodox Judaism on relationships, which are intended for far loftier purposes- to inspire, to have a helpmate in religious worship and in raising a family, among others. If you begin your search with this in mind, all relationships are more serious and potentially geared towards the end of marriage; finding someone with whom you can not only get along but can see yourself building a life of worshipping God is the push towards marriage, not sex or society.
This is an emotionally mature view of relationships and marriage, and the fact that some young students feel that they can take on the responsibilities of marriage shows, contrary to the claims of many on this thread, that they have moved beyond the "just for fun" attitude of the average college student. Not all Orthodox students marry during college-indeed, most don't, and the article's treatment of them as "old maids" or anomalies is quite problematic. But for those who do, it displays a decision to enter into the maturity many college students expect to see only in their late 20s. This does not mean that they are dumb or not interested in school or careers, but rather that they feel they can balance the stresses and responsibilities of classes and home life- something we all have to deal with at some point.
I wish this article had included quotes from male Orthodox students who married while in college, or non-Jews. They exist, just not in the world as envisioned by the author.
These comments are a little ridiculous at this point. The truth of the matter is that these married girls are not a representative sample of Orthodox Judaism, and should not be the cause of any type of argument. To those who disagree with their decision, why do you care so much? No one is telling you to get married, and you're not going to change these girls' minds with a rant. To those of you who think this kind of marriage is fine, then enjoy your newly sanctioned "touching" in peace. You're not going to change anyone's mind either with fuzzy math about divorce rates. Can't we discuss anything this semester without offending anyone? Besides, its really just a Barnard issue anyway. The 1400+ crowd need not concern themselves on this one.
PS has anyone seen "Engaged and Underage" on MTV? Priceless.
Although before this article I would have felt no need to defend my beliefs about marriage (I am an orthodox Jew in college and I am contemplating marriage during college) and do not really feel a great personal need to now, I am worried that as a result of this article people will get an incorrect impression of orthodox Jewish students on campus (especially the married ones).
The author of this article, instead of producing a thoughtful look at the concerns and conflicts of many Jewish students has produced extreme presentation of a very delicate issue. She only touches on many complicated issues, and for those she only selectively quotes incendiary statements. Instead of a fair and balanced article the overwhelming majority of quotes put the conduct of these students in a negative light. The impression that a reader gets from this article is that the woman of columbia/barnard are sex-starved and pressured by their community to get married and therefore making hasty decisions. And by the way, many of them don't really care about school anyway.*see below for the quotes that give this impression, many of which are thrown out undiscussed. Cf unfortunately the small number of balancing statements.* As with all stereotyping, simple honest reflection and small amounts of empirical investigation give lie to its portrait of a population. Simply talk to the woman quoted in the article, or any other young orthodox (married or unmarried) person on campus, and you will find out that this portrait is not only offensive, but dead wrong. (also, The men of this community, of which there is incredibly little mention, are portrayed as only wanting "a girl that will be around to raise a family all the time.” Obviously untrue of many of the men in the population.)
For those of you reading this article, I am sorry that you have been befouled by an article for which stereotypes underlie its presentation and inform its depiction of your fellow students. It is our duty to always fight against works written from a position of moral ignorance and remember that populations are made up of individuals. This should be no where more apparent than in the Spectator. I am saddened that it is not.
*"I always hoped by the time I graduated college, I would be married, be engaged"
"There’s a severe rupture that happens, when somebody gets married, of that bond."
"‘forget school, who cares? I’m married. ... What would be the difference?’”
"I have friends who come to me and say, ‘forget about it, it’s over, I’m an old maid,’” said Fischer, who is 22."
"I’m trying to decide, do I want to get married young or do I want to go to graduate school,’ and they see it as a conflict,"
“I saw a young woman after college who felt enormous guilt about using birth control,”
"Some of it [the push for early marriage] is motivated by pre-marital chastity and the pressure to want to have a full sexual relationship,”
As usual with the spec, if you read between the lines, you have to wonder how many of these quotes actually sounded in context.
To be fair, I think that's less a problem with spec and more a feature of the newspaper format, which is boiled down for length.
A lot of people quoted in articles seem to get self conscious for no reason, though, or get mad at the paper for protraying something the way it is (rather than dolling it up). Kind of like hearing your voice played back on a tape recorder.
But often they are actually taken out of context. Interviews with journalists can take a very long time and when only 1-4 quotes are being used, you just have to wonder about how accurate they are.
So what's the solution? Printing every interview unedited? Never addressing complex issues in a newspaper?
I'll agree that the format has its drawbacks, but I think people are too quick to cry foul and whine that things are taken out of context. (Of course they are—a piece of writing of finite length must, by its very nature, be selective in its presentation of information.)
as one of those quoted in the article- definitely agreed.
Im not exactly sure why anyone feels the need to hurl insults at girls who decide to get married in colloege? Doesn't Barnard teach us to embrace the individual, recognizing differences between us and encouraging respect? I understand that some of you may find this lifestyle completely foreign, but leave these girls alone and respect them for their commitment to tradition and ability to balance the best of the religious and secular world!!!
like i said before- i hope you find a relationship that changes your academically and society influenced perspective on marriage and self development and fulfillment
"...One married Barnard student who declined to be named admitted that she and her husband kissed and hugged before marriage, although she said that desire for sex did not affect her decision..."
Maybe her decision wasnt affected by the desire for sex, but i'm sure he was motivated alot by his zipper tension. Too bad she doesnt realize that.
Yes, but it takes two partners to decide when to marry. She had a say in the decision, too, you know.
To the first comment: On what basis are you calling marriage during undergrad a huge mistake? Do you have any evidence with which to back up your statement? Are you aware that divorce rate among Orthodox Jews is significantly lower than the rest of the population???
The divorce rate is likely influenced by societal pressures within the group, and not by a sense of happiness within the relationship. This applies to any close-knit community. If you'd be ostracized for getting a divorce, you'd be more likely to stick around in an unhappy marriage.
"...Are you aware that divorce rate among Orthodox Jews is significantly lower than the rest of the population???"
the divorce rate might be significantly lower than the rest of the population among Orthodox Jews, but before you start bragging about that as if you and your way of life have it all figured out; are you aware of the studies about how many of those married in the orthodox community have a happy and fulfilling marriage? It is my impression that the low divorce rate is due in large part to a stigma in judaism but there is very high rate of marital & sexual dissatisfaction. It would be interesting to have read some quotes from the therapist quoted in the article about this.
There you go, jumping to conclusions based on your prejudices. You blame allege high rates of marital dissatisfaction.
Please open yuor mind.
One reason many orthodox marriages are so good is that we share a set of commitments to ideals. Yes, sometimes there are dishes to do and money is thight, but we are blessed by having purpose to our lives, and sharing a purpose brings happiness.
with regards to the first comment
all too many Jews today have been taking your approach, one of "today's world is not the same one that Torah was written in." is your "slightly different structural approach" your way of saying g-d was good for then but HE doesn't understand the world now? as if to say today pre-marital relations should be ok because the world views it as that way and surely they know better.
the jewish people are the longest surviving people/society/tribe/whatever you want to call it for one reason only, because since the beginning of creation we have not changed one bit.
have a happy chanukah
As a reform Jew, I'd like to point out that yes, we have (thankfully) changed quite a bit since the inception of Judaism, and I'm every bit as much a Jew as you are.
that's absolutely terrifying. my jewish brethren, i have enormous respect for you but i think that marrying during undergrad is a huge mistake.
I sincerely hope for your sakes that Molly Elkins is correct; the desire for sex should not play a role in any decision of this magnitude. for God's sake break with tradition and get to know yourself and your partner a bit before you get married -- today's world is not the same one that Torah was written in, life has a different length and pace and it calls for a slightly different structural approach: including how one deals with both marriage and pre-marital sex .
"for God's sake break with tradition"
there's about a one in a million chance you will have jewish grandchildren. but hey, at least you'll "know yourself" as you like to put it.
OH NO!!! NOT THAT!!!
You and people who use this fear tactic as reasoning are the reason there's so much hostility between the different groups.
it wasn't a fear tactic, you can't terrify someone into being jewish. i was reiterating what i hoped you already foresaw. the average age for a non-orthodox observant jew is 0-13 and then hopefully again at 55+. if that sounds a little small ask yourself what you do so much that makes you jewish?
Well, for me (and I'm not the previous poster), what makes me Jewish is that I believe I am Jewish and identify as such, and I do not let anyone else's definition affect that.
to the first anonymous comment: im sorry that you apparently cannot relate to the concept having such a close relationship with someone that you cannot stand being apart from them. i hope that you can find someone who moves you so much that you will not let something, like college, that only takes up a fraction of your life control your entire future happiness.
Please tell me you're one of the girls quoted in this article, because that's the only thing that would explain how pathetic this comment is.
So college only takes up a fraction of your life and therefore has nothing to do with your entire future happiness? Who's to say that what these girls perceive as the most important thing in their lives, your relationship and/or marriage, will only end up being a fraction of their lives as well?
Well, the earlier you get married and the less thought you give it, the more likely it is to be a very, VERY fractional part of your life. If you insist on thinking that your entire life's happiness depends on your marriage, you're in for many life-long disappointments, including but not limited to divorce.
You should get married when you're done with college and have perhaps lived a few years out of it, when you have the financial security to know you're not doing it for money or a house or so you never have to work again, and when you have the psychological and emotional security to know that you don't need a husband to have a life that is full of "future happiness."
I would think that's exactly what a school like Barnard is trying to teach.
like i said before- i hope you find a relationship that changes your academically and society influenced perspective on marriage and self development and fulfillment
Actually, I think the "academically and society influenced perspective on marriage" is exactly the one the people in this article are espousing. It's the idea that you DON'T have to be married to find fulfillment and happiness in life that is new and different. Thanks for playing, try again. And next time, don't sound so brainwashed.
No, you don't HAVE to be married to find fulfillment and happiness, but you certainly can find it in marriage. People have different paths. I got married towards the end of my high school career, which was not my original plan, because I found the right person and it was the right thing for me. I finished college, and I'm now a professional, and I'm happy academically, socially, professionally and personally.
I found fulfillment and happiness in both. It can be done--it doesn't have to be one or the other.
(And I'm not the original poster, nor was I interviewed in the article.)
while your comments seem like you've thought this out quite a bit, i'm assuming when you say "when you're done with college and have perhaps lived a few years out of it," your meaning a few years of one night stands, a romp here and there and maybe a boyfriend for a year or two, you know, to keep you company.
thoughts and ideas are always nice and sweet but in the end of the day the facts and numbers are always right. the divorce rate is way past %50 today and you just don't find that in the orthodox world. while i cant say why, it just might have something to do with g-d being right every once in a while.
-adam
Adam -
I should have thought that the rest of my sentence, in which I elaborate on what I mean by "living a few years out of it" would have given you a hint as to what to assume. By "living a few years out of college," I don't mean having "one night stands, a romp here and there and maybe a boyfriend for a year or two." In fact, I'm not talking about romantic relationships/entanglements at all. Sure, you can have those and probably will, this is the 21st century after all (I think), but what I meant by "living" was exactly that: taking the time to figure out what makes you happy, what you're good at, what you want out of life, and THEN finding that other person not to fulfill that life, but to enhance it in a way that complements your own perfectly.
Also, thanks for belittling me by saying that "thoughts and ideas" are "nice and sweet." What, are we in the land of the Care Bears here? Thoughts and ideas are the very structure of any sound argument; the best of them very often far from "nice" or "sweet" or at all comforting to those desperate to uphold tradition.
Oh and telling me that "g-d" or even "GOD" might be right once in a while means nothing to me; I don't believe in that particular "nice and sweet" idea.
Ugh. Yeah, maybe it's GOd being right, or maybe a community that enforces ideology so rigidly produces people who never truly question that ideology.
pretty scary.
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